\u201cNo architect has any power,\u201d Philip Johnson told Metropolis<\/i> in a 1998 interview. A party Wednesday night at the Urban Glass House, on Manhattan\u2019s Spring Street west of Soho, suggests otherwise. Few architects, after all, have the sort of lasting influence that stirs up excitement for the posthumous construction of a late, minor design.<\/p>\n
Whether the Urban Glass House\u2014based on a design by Johnson and his partner, Alan Ritchie, with interiors by Annabelle Selldorf\u2014is kin to Johnson\u2019s iconic New Canaan residence, or just a good excuse to sell luxury condos, is up for debate. The 12-story glass-fronted building somewhat resembles the original house, stacked high. But if Johnson\u2019s hand is apparent in the framing of the glass facade, the site\u2019s urban context works against its particular Modernist conceit. In lieu of 75 carefully manicured acres of Connecticut countryside, residents will wake up to the Holland Tunnel\u2019s hulking vents and a slim, endangered view of the Hudson River. You can hardly fault downtown Manhattan for not living up to the pastoral splendor of New Canaan, but it raises the question: Should the Glass House really be urban?<\/p>\n
One wonders what Johnson himself would have to say. In his verbal sparring match with Philip Nobel, reprinted below, he revealed his method for determining if a building is great architecture. \u201cI have a very simple rule: Does it make me cry when I step in?\u201d We dare not ask.<\/p>\n
**
\nI\u2019ll tell you why I\u2019m here, and I\u2019ll be frank because I know there\u2019s no beating around the bush with you. I want to talk about power.<\/b><\/p>\n
Power?<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know if you ever think about it in these terms, but I\u2019m curious about how you see your power in architecture. Not only the power that comes from designing buildings that influence people, but also the political power you developed through positions such as your MOMA directorship. I also want to talk about the leading architects in the profession \u2014 the ones you refer to as your \u201ckids\u201d \u2014 and who among them you think is capable of having the kind of influence that you\u2019ve had during your career.<\/b><\/p>\n
Of course, I haven\u2019t had that power. That\u2019s an illusion. No architect has any power.<\/p>\n
Why not?<\/b><\/p>\n
Because the developers have it \u2014 our controllers \u2014 just as the archbishops did in the fourteenth century.<\/p>\n
What about within the little world of architecture itself? You can\u2019t say you haven\u2019t had real power there.<\/b><\/p>\n
Within our small world, I\u2019ve had influence, though I didn\u2019t know it. I know the reason now: old age. You see, it\u2019s just great, because you don\u2019t have to be any brighter than Joe Zilch, you just have to live a long time.<\/p>\n
Because then people respect you?<\/b><\/p>\n
You\u2019re a mandarin. And it\u2019s said that they are not looked up to in the West the way they are in the Far East. I\u2019m not so sure. I think underneath we respect people who have had a long experience. I\u2019m at that enviable age, and I\u2019m enjoying every single second.<\/p>\n
How would that explain the power you had when you were much younger? For instance, the influence you had on the reception of Modern architecture in the United States in the years after you put on the International Style show with Henry-Russell Hitchcock in 1932?<\/b><\/p>\n
I had no idea, you see, that we were on a power trip. We were just so passionate about Modern architecture that we would have done anything \u2014 we\u2019d have slit our throats willingly \u2014 to get it across. The fact that we did succeed is incidental.<\/p>\n
You\u2019re being coy, you have to admit.<\/b><\/p>\n
Certainly not. I mean, not from my point of view. You can interpret it as coyness, which would make sense. But, no, we honestly didn\u2019t think of that type of influence. Power is when you can make people do things.<\/p>\n
Right. That\u2019s what I want to talk about.<\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, well, that\u2019s what I can\u2019t do.<\/p>\n
But you have, maybe more than anyone else, made people think about American architecture in a particular way. Some would say you\u2019ve had more influence than Wright, who had a kind of power in his creative genius, and maybe even more than Thomas Jefferson. You\u2019ve had a unique influence on the shape of the debate in architecture for more than 60 years. You don\u2019t think so?<\/b><\/p>\n
Of course not. People like Jefferson were great because they were politicians. He was a very good architect \u2014 better than he knew he was \u2014 but he was not a professional architect, so he doesn\u2019t count. Wright, on the other hand, will go down in history books until the end of observable time. But I represent a certain incident in time when things were changing, and I could have a little influence, with Russell Hitchcock and Alfred Barr. Alfred Barr was the genius who sent us off to write the catalogue for the 1932 show. So all the power there lay in Alfred Barr\u2019s hands.<\/p>\n
What about later? Paul Rudolph used to talk about the salon you held at your house in Cambridge when you were a student at Harvard in the early 1940s. And Robert Stern has written about the \u201cGlass House seminars\u201d \u2014 your influence on him and people like Paul Goldberger when you were teaching at Yale. That\u2019s the kind of power I\u2019m talking about: being able to influence new generations of architects and critics, and helping them to determine how buildings should be built.<\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, with the kids I did have a bit of influence. We had a return engagement the other night, a dinner for the 60th birthday of one of them: Charlie Gwathmey. And the New York Five were all there, and I was the old architect from out of town, so naturally I was looked up to, and that was very pleasant. In that sense, I had an influence, yes.<\/p>\n
Who among that generation \u2014 the kids\u2019 generation \u2014 has power in the same sense? I mean, Frank Gehry is undeniably a great architect, and Stern has his following \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n
\u2014 Stern is marvelous \u2014<\/p>\n
\u2014 and there are people who have a taste for Richard Meier. But do you see any of those architects being able to translate their popularity into power the way you have?<\/b><\/p>\n
Into the power that you think I have? I guess I use a different measuring stick.<\/p>\n
What\u2019s your stick?<\/b><\/p>\n
My measuring stick is the great architect who does great buildings that will go down in history with the cathedrals of the past. Bilbao is the only building like that built in this century.<\/p>\n
The whole century?<\/b><\/p>\n
The whole century. There\u2019s nothing that Frank Lloyd Wright ever did that has that emotive power. You walk into Bilbao \u2014 have you been?<\/p>\n
I haven\u2019t been yet.<\/b><\/p>\n
Well, you\u2019d better get your ass over there. That is the important building of our generation and of our time.<\/p>\n
It will, of course, be copied a million times by students everywhere, but do you think that building will really have the lasting influence that, say, Wright\u2019s Guggenheim has had?<\/b><\/p>\n
Oh, five times the influence. It\u2019s a better building. In every way.<\/p>\n
How are you determining \u201cbetter\u201d?<\/b><\/p>\n
I have a very simple rule: Does it make me cry when I step in?<\/p>\n
Did it?<\/b><\/p>\n
Bilbao did. I\u2019ve been back, too, and I said it wouldn\u2019t happen again, because I\u2019ve learned now. But it did: I burst into tears. That\u2019s not easy to do. Gehry is so far the greatest architect that you almost can\u2019t talk about the rest. But the man of influence in your sense is Stern. I noticed that when he was a student of mine. I said, this is the brightest kid that ever worked for me \u2014 I didn\u2019t say \u201cdesigner\u201d \u2014 I said [he had] an influence for the good, through his knowledge of history, his personality, everything you can come up with. And he did become powerful. He did exactly what I thought he would. When he was my student, I said, \u201cYou are going places, young man.\u201d And, boy, did he go places.<\/p>\n
Where do you think he went? A lot of people would say he has made a name for himself more through influence-peddling than through his talent as an architect.<\/b><\/p>\n
I\u2019ll let you say that. I\u2019m not going to bad-mouth any other architect. I think Bob Stern is just wonderful, and God bless him. He has real influence. Naturally, I\u2019m very envious.<\/p>\n
That\u2019s the sort of power I\u2019m accusing you of having, too.<\/b><\/p>\n
Well, he\u2019s got it all.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m young, so correct me if I\u2019m being naive \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n
\u2014 I\u2019ll kick you in the shins \u2014<\/p>\n
\u2014but I feel that over the long term, the great buildings \u2014 like Bilbao and whatever else might crop up \u2014 set the pattern at a grand scale, but for those buildings to get built at all there are people, like you and Stern, who set an equally important agenda of tastemaking within the schools and the press. You haven\u2019t seen this?<\/b><\/p>\n
Maybe. On your scale, I would put Stern at the top. But on my scale there\u2019s only one top: Frank Gehry.<\/p>\n
And what about Peter Eisenman?<\/b><\/p>\n
Eisenman is still new. He hasn\u2019t done any important buildings yet, but they\u2019re going up, like the new ferry terminal on Staten Island. He\u2019s hit the big time, and I\u2019m very proud of him, naturally.<\/p>\n
But before he hit the big time with built work \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n
\u2014 well, he had a huge intellectual influence on architects. Is that a power you would count, too?<\/p>\n
Yeah, I think we should count that.<\/b><\/p>\n
Oh, well, that\u2019s Eisenman. He was the one who got the New York Five together. He\u2019s the one who influences me. He made a crossroads of the world at the Institute for Architecture and Urban Studies [in New York] in the 1970s. We all met there. The institute was his great creation. In your sense, if you want to put it that way, he was already up there with Stern.<\/p>\n
So do you think it is ridiculous to try to assess architects\u2019 power outside of their work?<\/b><\/p>\n
Sure I do. But I don\u2019t mind \u2014 you do it.<\/p>\n
I\u2019d rather talk about buildings, but you know there\u2019s only so much interest out there.<\/b><\/p>\n
You are perfectly right: People are interested in power, not in buildings. And that hurts.<\/p>\n
It hurts? Why?<\/b><\/p>\n
Then I lose [my real] influence, because what I do is make shapes. I like buildings that are molded like sculpture.<\/p>\n
Now you do.<\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, now. My best building now is the Monsta.<\/p>\n
I think you are proving my point. The Monsta is extremely influential, beyond its merits as architecture alone. Other people who are not Philip Johnson, God help them, were designing similar buildings, but when this came out it was published everywhere \u2014 it got its own page in the New Yorker \u2014 and it helped popularize that whole expressionist direction.<\/b><\/p>\n
To me there was only one comment about the Monsta that mattered. Eisenman said, \u201cPhilip, that\u2019s the first time you\u2019ve made something for the history books.\u201d<\/p>\n
That\u2019s because it was the first time you made something that looked a little like his stuff.<\/b><\/p>\n
But it doesn\u2019t. I got this from Frank Stella, the painter. I\u2019ll pick up anything.<\/p>\n
So the influence is going the other way? Do I have it wrong? I came here to ask Philip Johnson how his influence was still trickling down to the rest of the profession.<\/b><\/p>\n
No, it\u2019s the other way around: It trickles down to me. I\u2019m enjoying the world, and I do have a little ability to talk and to become known. Yes, I have that \u2014 I don\u2019t know what that is, though. What I want is power.<\/p>\n
What you want is power?<\/b><\/p>\n
Of course.<\/p>\n
How would you go about getting it?<\/b><\/p>\n
Well, I can\u2019t.<\/p>\n
Why not?<\/b><\/p>\n
Because I\u2019d have to be a better architect.<\/p>\n
I think you might have something better than being a better architect \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n
\u2014 something like Bob Stern has?<\/p>\n
Right.<\/b><\/p>\n
Well, I don\u2019t have that either!<\/p>\n
So what do you have? Why am I here?<\/b><\/p>\n
Exactly.<\/p>\n
I thought I was coming to the source.<\/b><\/p>\n
Maybe I\u2019m just being coy. I\u2019ll have to revise my opinion of myself. I\u2019m always afraid someone\u2019ll come and tap me on the shoulder and say, \u201cJohnson, you\u2019ve spent a lifetime in architecture and you\u2019re wealthy enough so you don\u2019t have to worry; why aren\u2019t you better?\u201d I still have the big building to do.<\/p>\n
Which is the big building?<\/b><\/p>\n
I don\u2019t know, that\u2019s always the question. I\u2019m working on buildings that move.<\/p>\n
And that idea came from one of the kids?<\/b><\/p>\n
I suppose the permission, as it were, came from Gehry. Although he does it his way and will always do it his way. He\u2019s a unique architect, like Gaud\u00ed. He has great sensitivities for shape. He sees the drapery on a statue in a Gothic cathedral \u2014 there\u2019s something in the folding and the shadows that are made from it \u2014 that\u2019s just what he wants to do, you see? And it\u2019s very tactile. In Bilbao, when you go, you\u2019ll want to touch it.<\/p>\n
Like the prow of I.M. Pei\u2019s National Gallery building, where everyone rubs it?<\/b><\/p>\n
Yes, and that\u2019s what they do with the Monsta \u2014 everyone grabs the point. There\u2019s something about a point. But it\u2019s better than Pei, because it leans. So you go up to it, and you pet it. It\u2019s the most tactile building I\u2019ve ever done.<\/p>\n
So the Monsta is going to be the public entry pavilion to your property, down the road, when the National Trust takes over? In the paper recently someone there gave you 15 more years, and they said they wouldn\u2019t need it until then.<\/b><\/p>\n
Really? My doctors tell me eight. Anyhow, I don\u2019t care much anymore. Death is nothing, you see \u2014 it just happens and that\u2019s the end. I just want to finish some more buildings.<\/p>\n
During one of your appearances on the Charlie Rose show you said you\u2019d really like to design a city. Is that still a goal?<\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, it would be, but the people don\u2019t want that. They don\u2019t want an architect telling them how to live. Le Corbusier spent most of his life on the Ville Radieuse and ridiculous ideas like that. But he couldn\u2019t help it. You only do architecture when you can\u2019t help doing it.<\/p>\n
Maybe good architects only do architecture when they can\u2019t help doing it.<\/b><\/p>\n
Well, no architect should do it unless he can\u2019t help doing it. Like you, you see: You can do something else, so for heaven\u2019s sake do it. There\u2019s very little passion around. Without passion, you shouldn\u2019t go into architecture.<\/p>\n
Do all of your kids have enough passion?<\/b><\/p>\n
Gehry does. To me, Gehry can do no wrong. That\u2019s nonsense \u2014 of course he can, but I don\u2019t think so. And I can do no wrong. Of course, I may make trouble sometimes because of what my clients ask me to do \u2014 but me? My goodness, no. You see, I\u2019m not so coy, inside. I never make mistakes. I don\u2019t always have the perfect opportunity, as I did with the Monsta. You know, I still don\u2019t know what that building cost. Always be your own client.<\/p>\n
During another interview a few years ago with Charlie Rose, you got a word in edgewise \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n
\u2014 I told him to shut up and let me talk \u2014<\/p>\n
\u2014 and you said that we are approaching a time when we would once again have larger-than-life \u201cform-giving\u201d architects like Wright and Corbusier and Mies van der Rohe.<\/b><\/p>\n
We\u2019ve got one.<\/p>\n
Is there another?<\/b><\/p>\n
I\u2019m not sure that Eisenman isn\u2019t one. And that would be an interesting combination: an intellectual turned architect. How it happened, I have no idea, except he knows he should be an architect, he always knew he should be. But he couldn\u2019t help being an intellectual first \u2014 he was brought up on words.<\/p>\n
I see Eisenman with Stern, sharing the top of the \u201cinfluencers\u201d scale. Do you think he could ever cross over to your scale of timeless builders?<\/b><\/p>\n
I think he just might. We\u2019ll have to wait and see. But look, if someone doesn\u2019t do a curved building, does that mean it isn\u2019t good?<\/p>\n
No, of course not. It may be better to be \u201cgood\u201d without relying on egotism and histrionic forms. There\u2019s a trend toward this in New York now: Youngish architects are forming generic firms that do good, humble work \u2014 and a lot of them aren\u2019t even putting their names on the door.<\/b><\/p>\n
It\u2019s all false modesty. You\u2019ve got to have egotism if you want to be an architect.<\/p>\n
Always?<\/b><\/p>\n
Well, why would you ever go through the torture otherwise? It\u2019s ridiculous. Selfless architecture! Michelangelo, that great selfless genius?<\/p>\n
Some of the midtown skyscrapers right out your window here are pretty selfless \u2014 your Lipstick Building excepted, of course.<\/b><\/p>\n
That\u2019s just because people don\u2019t have the talent to do anything else, A. And, B, that\u2019s where the money is: where there\u2019s no art. Our rulers, the people who dictate the taste, are developers. They\u2019re the ones with the clout, and that\u2019s what a lot of them want.<\/p>\n
Don\u2019t influential architects \u2014 say, you and Stern and maybe Eisenman \u2014 play some role in defining that taste over time?<\/b><\/p>\n
I wish we did. Dear Mr. Jerry Hines is now the biggest developer in the world, and do I get a peep in? Not a peep.<\/p>\n
Are you being a little coy again? You can look back on everything you\u2019ve done since 1932 and say that you haven\u2019t had any influence on the way people build in this country?<\/b><\/p>\n
I have only had that kind of influence in one place: Houston, Texas. It\u2019s mostly my buildings there. Nine buildings, and most of them were built by Jerry Hines.<\/p>\n
So you did get to build your city \u2014 in Houston?<\/b><\/p>\n
Well, it was the nearest thing I could get. A building here and a building there, that\u2019s not a city. C\u2019mon, that\u2019s beyond anyone\u2019s ability right now. But I have to say, through Jerry Hines I had what you call power, I guess, in that one place.<\/p>\n
But why did Jerry Hines come to you at all? Didn\u2019t you already have a reputation as the last word in good taste?<\/b><\/p>\n
How would he know that?<\/p>\n
Because he saw you in the magazines and in books, and he saw your buildings scattered around the country.<\/b><\/p>\n
No, no. I hadn\u2019t done any buildings when he hired me.<\/p>\n
ou must have done a couple. You\u2019ve had that little glass box up in Connecticut since 1949.<\/b><\/p>\n
Oh, the little glass box \u2014 yeah, that one. You know, I forget when I met Jerry Hines \u2014 sometime in the dim past. But I\u2019ve always been pretty good at publicity, of course.<\/p>\n
Right. Now correct me if I\u2019m wrong, but I feel like the kind of influence that comes with your ability to publicize yourself \u2014<\/b><\/p>\n
\u2014 the kind of influence that comes with my ability, I\u2019ve had. I can\u2019t deny it: I\u2019ve been successful in getting to where I wanted to be. The only thing \u2014 the top prize \u2014 I haven\u2019t got.<\/p>\n
Which is?<\/b><\/p>\n
What Frank Gehry gets at the youthful age of 60.<\/p>\n
Maybe because it comes so easy to you, you don\u2019t put any value on the tastemaking ability that you\u2019ve always had.<\/b><\/p>\n
Tastemaking? I did [do] that. But again \u2014 I can\u2019t help it, it may sound coy \u2014 I got the great push from Alfred Barr. Barr was the man of vision who saw everything that was happening in the twentieth century. And he told me about it. And I did a lot of the carrying out [of his vision], I don\u2019t deny that. I knew how great Russell Hitchcock was; nobody else did. Nobody knew how great Barr was, either. Barr wanted Mies van der Rohe to build the Museum of Modern Art. He didn\u2019t have a chance, of course.<\/p>\n
I think you\u2019re proving my point again. Barr wasn\u2019t even an architect, but through you he\u2019s had this big influence.<\/b><\/p>\n
Yeah, that\u2019s right. And I helped him in return. That\u2019s a fair exchange. I see now: Taste leaders, by influencing other people, then influence the world?<\/p>\n
Something like that. Think about Gehry. If he came along with his personal vision at a time when the ground had not been prepared, people might have laughed at him.<\/b><\/p>\n
Maybe that\u2019s why Frank\u2019s so nice to me. Eisenman I can see. He likes me because I can help him with his fame.<\/p>\n
But before Eisenman got interested in making physical monuments, I think he was interested in just this kind of power-brokering. Following your example, he was busy changing the climate of taste, though I\u2019m sure he would put it differently. Am I giving you too much credit?<\/b><\/p>\n
It\u2019s the other way around: I discovered him. But maybe now he thinks it would be a good idea to have his name tied to mine. So when he got a big job to do a casino in Atlantic City \u2014 the biggest casino in the world \u2014 he said, \u201cI\u2019ll take the job, but only with Philip Johnson.\u201d We both took the job. And we both walked out.<\/p>\n
Why?<\/b><\/p>\n
He\u2019s his own architect.<\/p>\n
Eisenman?<\/b><\/p>\n
No, the developer [Steve Wynn]. We loved him, and we both worked our asses off for him, but he wasn\u2019t open to architecture as we saw it. We had twinkles in our eyes. Two billion dollars to spend! Can you imagine? So maybe we went too fast, but I doubt it. I\u2019m pretty malleable.<\/p>\n
Is Eisenman?<\/b><\/p>\n
No. He\u2019s not malleable at all, which is why I didn\u2019t think he\u2019d ever make it, but he\u2019s changed.<\/p>\n
What\u2019s helped him to get as far as he has?<\/b><\/p>\n
Not me. Oh, well, maybe. It might be me.<\/p>\n
And if he should ever go on to make an epochal building like Bilbao, wouldn\u2019t it exist in part only because you helped pave his way?<\/b><\/p>\n
I think you\u2019re wrong, but I see your point. I don\u2019t give myself that much credit. All right: I can talk. I am a persuasive talker. I do meet with people \u201coutside,\u201d in the world of clients. But I don\u2019t influence them. If I did, I\u2019d have more work.<\/p>\n
Maybe I\u2019m affected by the old Victor Hugo canard that books are more lasting than buildings, but I feel that certain people \u2014 I don\u2019t want to mention any names \u2014 who have the ability to communicate ideas and charm people, can have as great an impact on the direction of architecture as those who design the buildings. Take you and Mies, for instance. You were instrumental in his getting the commission for this building. If you hadn\u2019t set the stage through power-brokering, we wouldn\u2019t be sitting in the Seagram Building right now.<\/b><\/p>\n
Yes, I got him the job. Alfred Barr turned Phyllis Lambert over to me. She came and said, \u201cHow do I find an architect?\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019ll drive you around the country, and we\u2019ll find one.\u201d Then I sort of inched her over until she liked Mies the best. I didn\u2019t say, \u201cYou\u2019ve gotta pick Mies,\u201d but I was influential. That\u2019s power, huh?<\/p>\n
Yeah, that\u2019s it.<\/b><\/p>\n
Okay, I was helpful in getting Mies this important job.<\/p>\n
I\u2019m not sure that\u2019s where it stops.<\/b><\/p>\n
That\u2019s where I think it stops. I think any real power you read into it is an illusion. So I\u2019m a good little helpful puppy dog that can smile at some people like Mrs. Lambert. But I can\u2019t charm anybody else. Why haven\u2019t I got General Motors to build something?<\/p>\n
You didn\u2019t help Eero Saarinen to get work with General Motors in the 1950s?<\/b><\/p>\n
No, I did not! He was never one of my prot\u00e9g\u00e9s. But you got me there. All right, I have power.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
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